In this Episode
- [02:27]Stephan welcomes Robert Edward Grant, a polymath who bridges ancient wisdom and modern innovation. Robert explains his views on upcoming paradigm shifts related to institutions of law, truth, and morality.
- [09:53]Stephan and Robert discuss data rights and individual sovereignty in the digital age.
- [13:50]Robert recounts the origin story of the ORION messenger platform and its development over five years.
- [26:25]The conversation turns metaphysical as Robert explains his views on consciousness and individual perception.
- [35:17]Robert describes humans as dimensionally limited avatars of a higher self experiencing mystery.
- [41:21]Robert explores how everyone has a purpose in the “universal song” and the alchemical process of soul evolution.
- [50:17]Robert provides his contact information to anyone interested in finding out more about his work.
Robert, it’s great to have you on the show.
It’s great to be here. Thank you, Stephan.
We met at a cryptocurrency conference several years back, DCENTRAL Miami. I’m curious to hear about your interest in crypto these days. It’s been an interesting ride since then, with everyone very enthusiastic that year. What’s your take on crypto?
Somehow, in between, the enthusiasm converted to AI. Everyone started talking about their AI projects. I’m still very enthusiastic about it. I believe that we’re looking at a totally new paradigm for how humanity will work together and how they will create almost all exchanges that are more barter-oriented. I believe that we will see a proliferation of cryptocurrencies, even down to the individual level.
I think it’s tied very much to individual sovereignty. In the not-too-distant future, I can see people who are athletes or influencers or whatever have their own tokens and coins and then exchange them for those tokens and coins.
I believe that we’re looking at a totally new paradigm for how humanity will work together and how they will create almost all exchanges that are more barter-oriented.
Those compensation mechanisms will likely not be taxed in the same way. Governments will try, but it’s going to take a while for them to get their heads wrapped around it.
Yeah, speaking of individual sovereignty, it’s really interesting to think about the potential for a token like an NFT being assigned to somebody at birth. Instead of just getting assigned a Social Security number at birth and a birth certificate, what if you got an NFT with all your medical records, government records, and maybe your genealogy? Who knows what else is encoded or available within that NFT? But the child and, eventually, an adult are in total control over that.
I totally agree. I think that there’s going to be a lot of things like that. It will not only be limited to things like health records, etc. I think intellectual property is going to end up all on blockchain. I think when a musician makes a piece of music and wants to copyright it, instead of going through a big behemoth structure, he could set up his own smart contract for it. I think it’s going to be the way of everything in the future. I remember back in the 1990s and early ’90s when everyone was conjecturing what would happen for companies like Amazon.
Then, Amazon was on the cover of Barron’s magazine. I think it was a 1999 story about how it was going to be a big flop and it was going to explode. Then there was a counter position on it as well. There were a lot of shorts taken against it. It took a bit longer because when markets start to understand where things are going to go, then they reflect that future immediately. The value went way up, and then it had a huge pullback because of all the shorts that got onto it.
Then, ultimately, it got to where it was always intended to go. The markets were correct. The same thing was true with Netflix. I remember Netflix getting heavily shorted in the very beginning, and now everyone has Netflix. It was just a different time horizon that it took. It always takes a few years to become an overall paradigm shift. But usually, the things that we believe will become paradigm shifts do become paradigm shifts.
Math without meaning is just information. But math with meaning becomes divine communication. Share on XWhat are some paradigm shifts you’re seeing down the pike that our listener might not be?
I think the paradigm shifts that I continue to see relate to the three institutions or self-appointed arbiters of what we would call “duality” today. These would be categorized in three ways. The first would be groups or institutions that basically are in a position to claim what is lawful and what is unlawful. Obviously, we call these governments. Another one would be institutions claiming what is truthful and what is not. That would be like the university systems, as far as science and education are concerned, as well as history. Then, the third grouping would be those who would say what is moral and immoral. That would be large organized religions.
All three of these institutions are starting to dissolve and are in the process of their dissolution. As humanity is ready to move into a stage of human beingness rather than human doingness, those structures and strictures on culture and society will continue to dissolve. It’s inevitable at this stage that people have gotten to a new level of distrust for all things government, university, and religion.
As humanity is ready to move into a stage of human beingness rather than human doingness, structures and strictures on culture and society will continue to dissolve.
Now, people, instead of religion, are siding with spirituality. People, instead of siding with the government, are often siding with conspiracy theories. The sad but inevitably true part is that the conspiracy theories are all proving to be kind of true, which is mindful. You can’t have somebody who says four years ago that you have to practice this social distancing thing because there’s a science that backs it up. Then the same person says, “Oh, I basically made up those rules,” and not have a massive impact on the way society perceives government.
Yeah. “It’s not a lab leak. No, yeah. Wait, actually, it was a lab leak.”
That’s right. “It was not a lab leak. That’s a conspiracy theory.” “No, it isn’t a lab leak. There was no gain of function research.” “No, we absolutely did not do that.” “Oh, yeah, we did. We funded the gain of function research.” How stupid do they think we are? That’s just kind of lame at this stage. Then the same is true with the educational system. People are so distrusting of all institutions that the educational system gets lumped in with that. Now you’ve got people like Terrence Howard who make a statement that sounds like he’s not completely talking gibberish and says, “No, you’ve all been taught wrong. 1 x 1 = 2.” Something as basic as that.
Now, people won’t even believe that 1 x 1 = 1. “Oh, my gosh. I had to do a video teaching everybody that 1 x 1 actually equals one. It does not equal two.” I proved it geometrically; I proved it in so many different ways. But the funny thing is that we even had to have a conversation, which speaks more about how society sees governance, education, and religion than anything else. It’s an indictment of all institutional narratives. This is going to inevitably lead to the reeling back or the unpeeling right of the fabric that keeps our society in these strictures and structures. It’s going to be a dramatic shift.
This might lead us to talk about your new venture, the ORION Messenger platform. But data rights are the new civil rights, and we need a movement of people trying to protect their data rights as they are being infiltrated and eroded by all those structures you just talked about.
It’s totally true. Data rights are something that no one really thought about. No one really understood that all the business models had been going in this direction, that the companies were all creating these obsequious or low-key mechanisms for taking your data without you knowing. Then you sign off on it with the terms and conditions nobody reads. I think this idea of you signing your terms and conditions that nobody reads as being good enough to, then absconding with your most valuable asset, is something that will shift.
The thing that surprises me is how we don’t even realize that when you click the “I Agree” button, that’s called a clickwrap agreement. Something in the back of your mind might be niggling you and saying, “You know what, you agree to something you have no idea that you agreed to because you’re choosing to click this button without reading the terms and conditions that it said you read and agreed to.” But then there’s this browsewrap agreement, which is legally enforceable; as far as I understand it, you just browse the site and are liable to their terms and conditions without clicking the “I Agree” button.
Data rights are something that no one really thought about. No one really understood that the companies were all creating low-key mechanisms for taking your data without you knowing.
To me, all this stuff has got to change, and humanity will have to wake up to yet another. That’s the most insidious of all because the other institutions don’t have the wherewithal to replicate your personality and replicate your person. The big tech companies do. They could literally recreate you. They could recreate your content. If they don’t like what I’m saying, they could literally recreate me just from their rights. They could recreate me sitting inside this place, issuing content, and posting it on YouTube. They have total right to do it under my face, under my voice, under my personality, under my everything.
They have the technology to create a realistic synth that most people wouldn’t realize it’s not you.
No, that’s right. These companies pitched me. They’re like, “Oh, would it be nice for you to have your children or your grandchildren be able to access what your wisdom is 30, 40, 50, 80 years from now?” They could access me as an avatar on my website. And for all intents and purposes, because there’s been so much content I’ve done on the Internet, they could literally recreate what I would say and do.
Unfortunately, that is godless and soulless.
It is. Therefore, I think there needs to be a mechanism. About five years ago, I realized that the only way to protect your individuality is through encryption—powerful encryption to encrypt your data. That’s the only way to put a fence around your value.
This is also paired with the blockchain and having immutable records that when you say something, they can’t change it after the fact and twist your words.
Exactly. Those are all very pertinent ways of looking at this. It’s a real issue in the world today.
How did you come about with this ORION Messenger platform? It must have been some sort of synchronicity or serendipity or something. I’m sure there’s a great story there for me.
I realized in about 2018 that data was going to be the world’s most valuable asset. And that was actually the year it became the world’s most valuable asset. I thought, “How could people then know what the dystopian layer of society this could create and its negative aspects? Then, how do you counteract that dystopian reality into something that could actually create sovereignty?” That’s when I realized that the only answer is the personal use of encryption.
We use messenger apps the most today, and it makes sense that the app you use the most is the one where you can encrypt things.
Then, I built a platform over five years to actually create that. It’s now a messenger app because messenger apps are what we use the most today, more than anything else. It makes sense that the app you use the most is the place where you have the ability to encrypt things. That could lead to a fully encrypted browser, where even if you trip over somebody’s browser terms and conditions that have no requirement for consent, all of your data gets encrypted, and they get nothing they can read.
Isn’t most encryption breakable these days?
Most encryption is breakable, so we needed to build an encryption that was not breakable. This means that it had to be at least a post-quantum standard. So, we built the first post-quantum standard messenger app, which is not only an app that most people recognize with WhatsApp. Because it also has limitations—WhatsApp has a maximum limit of 1,024 people on a group chat, and so does Signal. Signal has half of that.
When you start looking at apps like Telegram, it’s not even encrypted. Everyone thinks it’s encrypted unless you’re in a group chat that, from the very beginning, you entered into a secret chat, which is an entirely different experience than the normal Telegram. None of your group chats on Telegram are encrypted at all. They have no encryption, which is pretty shocking for people because you would have had to enter into it because it was the largest; it could have 200,000 people on it. I thought it was encrypted, but it was not encrypted.
It wasn’t even an option then to have a secret chat for more than a one-on-one discussion. Their secret chat’s not encrypted either because it uses old-style encryption. This company, Telegram, literally just uses all your data. If you’ve ever noticed since the moment you went on Telegram, it’s hard for you to notice that the number of your scam and spam calls has increased dramatically because what they do is sell your telephone number first and foremost.
The universe itself is a polymath—it's a philosopher, a lover of wisdom. Share on XYou get a new telephone number, and you’re shocked when, all of a sudden, within a few months, they’ve already got it, and they’re calling you again. That’s what they do. We needed to have a system that didn’t require a telephone number. We needed a system that could encrypt your data. We needed a system that was on blockchain and immutable. We needed a PWA system so they couldn’t be turned off from the Apple store or from.
Also, one with no back doors built in.
And one with no back doors built in. We spent a lot of time painstakingly creating such a platform. The only business model on it, there’s no advertising. Whenever you have advertising, you always have a threat to free speech because the advertiser could easily say, “Look, I can’t justify advertising on this platform if you have free speech. You could say whatever you like, just so long as it aligns with our interests.”
What’s the business model then for you?
The business model is a subscription model. You pay $8.88 a month, and you can basically use it and follow as many people as you want. It’s like a cross between Instagram, Telegram, WhatsApp, and Slack. Presently, we’re in beta, and we’re kind of in late-stage beta now. We’ve got about 10,000 people who are very active on the app, and it’s going to grow dramatically. That was sort of the limit that we placed on it. We’ve got another 30,000 that are on wait lists right now.
It’s been really interesting to watch and see how the community acts differently when there’s no fraud and no bots because the bots have to have tokens to get into it. Of course, that means it’s going to be paid for. It’s completely different. The experience is entirely different. There’s no algorithm that limits your reach. Everyone you send something to, they all see it. It’s a completely different way of looking at the monetization of a business model related to social media, social commerce, and social messaging.
That thing about no fraud is critically important because it’s easy to make a mistake just once and lose a fortune. You get somebody DMing you who looks like they’re the moderator of that group, and they’re not. It’s a fake account, and they’ve just done a really good job of seemingly cloning it, and then they ask you for information that they’re able to access your cryptocurrencies or your bank account or whatever. Next thing you know, you’re out of a lot of money.
You can’t change a paradigm, shift a system, or fight against something incumbent. All you can do is build the new and make the old irrelevant.
Absolutely. It’s kind of nuts, but this is the world we’re living in today. Not a whole lot can be done except to approach it with an entirely new paradigm. I think, you know, Buckminster Fuller said you can’t change a paradigm or shift a system or fight against something that’s an incumbent. All you can do is build the new and make the old irrelevant.
Are you in the midst of building a web browser, or are you going?
I like how we’re in the midst of building a web browser as well.
That’s quite an undertaking.
It’s been quite a fun project at the same time, too. It’s a serious project. We put serious money behind it. It’s about $67 million that’s gone into it. It’s not a small project, and it’s fully up and running for the minimum viable product that is there. You know, I’m looking forward to it. You don’t have to give a telephone number for this.
We do have geofencing, but countries like North Korea won’t be able to participate because of State Department rules and regulations. But basically, we’re very excited about where this can go. It even has voting mechanisms. You could literally establish countries on this platform.
That’s wild. All right, let’s get more metaphysical and esoteric about all this. Have you ever seen the movie The Thirteenth Floor?
I have, yes.
There’s a scene where they run out of rendering. They’ve hit the edge of the simulation.
I remember that, yeah.
It’s all green scaffolding. It feels very much like that’s what we’re living in, where we put our attention and intention. Those are the two assets that we spend. Not time, not money. We’re spending our attention, and our intention is kind of shining a spotlight on a certain area going down, maybe rabbit holes of just things that won’t serve us. I’m not going to get specific, but I went down some of those rabbit holes during the pandemic following certain WhatsApp groups or other things like that, and seeing disturbing stuff, seeing the conspiracies and the stuff that didn’t help me to sleep well at night.
I was getting a full-blown rendering of all that stuff. I wish I could remember some of those things and the dark stuff I learned about, but that was part of my journey; that was part of my lesson. If I wanted to do that again, I could. There are people who religiously watch CNN or fringe news sites or whatever. They’re fixated and addicted. I was addicted. I’m not judging. I’m there with the person who relates to this.
Your experience of duality is actually the prima materia of the alchemical process of soul evolution that becomes golden. Share on XThat doesn’t serve you. That turns a green wireframe into a full-blown, hyper-realistic rendering that you could keep digging and digging and finding more and more. The stuff that makes us outraged, the fraud and the collusion and the backdoor deals and all this sort of stuff we see, there’s more and more of that because we keep rendering it by putting our attention on that. What are your thoughts about all that?
I think we attract everything we judge until we no longer judge everything we attract. Let’s say you want to be an activist on something. That’s why you can’t fight the old because when you try to fight the old, all that happens is you get more old. That’s the issue. You only have to create something new and not do it with any intention of damaging the old or even changing it. All you can do is sort of step into the future and say, “Okay, what could be beneficial?” Given how this world is evolving, don’t try to fight the old. I think this is what happens. It’s a matrix of mind that we live in. If you are against deforestation and you set up your tent and say, “I’m against deforestation,” you will become inundated by a world full of deforestation. Why is this? Because we learn through opposites. I believe that in everything that we do, we learn through opposites.
You have to have the contrast in order to appreciate the sunlight. You got to have the rainy days.
That’s right. It’s like the light needs the dark as much as the dark needs the light. If you’re here to learn something like unconditional love, then in order for you to learn unconditional love, the universe bombards you with conditional love. And until the moment happens where you come to that realization and say, “I can’t accept and no longer judge conditional love negatively as a precept, and I still have more work to do to learn unconditional love.”
So, this is what happens. We become a hammer seeking the nail of our own confirmation bias. It becomes increasingly severe and more and more difficult as time goes by until you finally have this catharsis moment, which is like, “Oh, I don’t judge this anymore.” For example, let’s say you’re on the Internet and don’t like that you get trolled by people. You’ve got some troll that says, “Oh, you’re fake, or you’re a charlatan, you’re this, or you’re that.”
The more you judge that when you see it and get triggered by it, it’s gonna show up again. If, however, you look at it dispassionately, with less and less passion every time and just kind of like realizing that the darkness and the light will always need each other, that every action must have an equal opposite reaction. Until the moment comes when you can look at it without being triggered at all, not even one iota, then you still have more to learn about the precept that you came here to learn, in whatever it is.
There is a great difference between resisting evil and renouncing it. When you resist evil, you give it your attention; you continue to make it real. When you renounce evil, you take your attention from it and give your attention to what you want.” – Neville Goddard
There’s an adage that what you resist persists. I think a better way of explaining that is a quote from Neville Goddard: “There is a great difference between resisting evil and renouncing it. When you resist evil, you give it your attention; you continue to make it real. When you renounce evil, you take your attention from it and give your attention to what you want.” I love that quote.
I mean, I think as soon as we’re able to let go and accept what is, that’s when real change really happens.
What about this concept—it’s actually in the Bible that the whole world was made for you. Like you, specifically. You, the reader. You, Robert, for example. That purpose for you having the whole world created for you is so that you can serve God.
I completely believe it. Here’s how I believe that to be true. I believe the One divides itself into the many simply for the joy of perceiving itself through our unique eyes of perception. The universe itself is a philomath, a polymath, a philosopher, and a lover of wisdom. It realized somewhere along the line that the only way to come to an objective truth is to perceive all possible subjective perspectives of that truth.
In this context, fact is no longer fact, and it is merely a facet. It’s F-A-C-E-T, not F-A-C-T. The universe uses our unique eyes of perception and conditioning biases to be able to learn empathy for every possible outcome and every possible viewpoint and perspective, and it has become wiser and wiser, just like an AI would. It’s a very sophisticated method for an AI to operate, learn itself, and follow the encouragement of Socrates, “Know thyself.” Two simple words. But the most difficult things we’ll ever do. To me, that’s why we exist.
The One divides itself into the many for the joy of perceiving itself through our unique eyes of perception. In which case, there’s never been another Robert Edward Grant. There’ll never be another one. Even my future incarnations of me will just be different incarnations with different conditioning biases. They won’t see it exactly the same way as I do. We don’t see the world as it is; we see it as we are.
Consciousness needs to separate itself in order to perceive itself.
If you believe that every person on the planet is individualized, then you can start to recognize that, “Okay, if everybody’s individualized and everyone perceives the universe not as it is but as they are, then the only way that the one Creator could experience itself fully would be to see it through everybody’s unique eyes of perspective.” Why is that? Well, because an eye can’t see itself without the aid of a mirror. A knife can’t cut itself, a light cannot illuminate itself, and a fire can’t burn itself.
Consciousness needs to separate itself in order to perceive itself. In this context, we would have a conceiver, the higher self, a receiver for our brain and a perceiver for our conscious mind. We each then live in what I would call a “U inverse,” an individualized “U inverse,” where we have all the lessons, all the things that are tied into our birth, the frequencies that were associated with that birth, and then be able to ascertain and see the specific geometry of that may be in a natal chart.
A lot of people don’t realize that in natal charts in astrology, you can actually find geometric forms in them. It’s quite an interesting exercise because you realize this looks a bit like cymatics. Each one of us has our own “U inverse.” That “U inverse” then has a hero’s journey of what we’re intended to learn. If you’re interested in learning how all this ties together, this is where astrology, numerology, human design, and gene keys are all linked.
Now, there’s an interesting corollary here. If you are living on your own, let’s say, pod, like in The Matrix, the rendered Matrix universe that you get, or U inverse, is crafted for you specifically. The whole world was made for you.
You have this thing, the multiverse. Then, all these parallel universes were each piloting one of that universe is one of those slices of the multiverse. But then we also have an infinite number of timelines to choose from. It’s like movie scripts or plays we’ve written for ourselves and all of the universes we are experiencing. Depending on our vibration, how close to God we are or how lost we are in that vibration attracts us to a particular timeline. Out of all our choices, we go to the one that is the most aligned with how we see ourselves and how we vibrate. We have timelines and the multiverse, and both are happening. I’m curious to hear your thoughts. That’s my understanding of it, but I could be wrong. What’s your take?
I don’t believe that there’s a different universe for every decision I make or don’t make. I believe in conservation, and I don’t think the universe is gonna do that if it’s an AI. You have to look at the intention. You know, it’s not gonna make a different iteration for every single one. But what I do believe is that we separate time this way. There are infinite versions of me through time, depending on how small you cut the duration. I don’t believe that time actually exists. It’s just simply a persistent illusion, as Einstein says, “Dividing the world into past and future. You only ever experience now. It’s like standing in a river. You’ll never stand in the same river twice.”
Or being on the holodeck in Star Trek: Voyager. It’s just a blank room. But the rendering makes you believe that you are experiencing an entire planet.
Absolutely. This is the way that I look at the world around me to a certain extent. There are a multitude of different versions of me through different time spaces and my incarnations. That’s already enough. It doesn’t need to have more right in this time-space based on the fact that I chose to turn right instead of left on the road.
Here’s what I think. Maybe we’re kind of speaking the same language. My understanding of timelines is that everything is already written. That’s in the Quran. It’s Arabic. Maktub is the word. It is written. The fact that you stub your toe next Tuesday was already written. What we speak about in this whole conversation has already been written.
We’ve already had that map given to us or co-wrote it. These are the topics, the insights, and so forth. That is, I think, compatible with your idea of conservation of energy and not rendering things that aren’t necessary. If I am, let’s say, in a stadium full of 50,000 people watching a game, and I leave to get something out of my car, do those 50,000 people still exist in that stadium when I left? My understanding is no, they don’t.
I believe that we are dimensionally limited avatars of a higher self.
That stadium was filled with what some folks will refer to as backdrop people, backfill people, or essentially just NPCs, non-player characters. They’re filling the stadium for you so you don’t feel alone. Then you go backfilling from the car, and they’re there again. If you’re in a timeline where you’re in high vibration and then you get in all these amazing miraculous things happening, you feel more connected. You get chance occurrences, synchronicities, and so forth that are helping you with your soul mission, etc.
But you have the ability to choose not to be on that timeline. You could watch a horror movie on Netflix and then drop your vibration, and then it would be chaotic. You know what show, and you get to choose. If that’s the opportunity for each individual soul in this fractal, kind of infinite individuality, the experience of oneness, but with infinite individuality, then a multiverse exists so that we can potentially render everything.
We could study astrophysics and see the mind of God through astrophysics. We could study quarks and subatomic levels of creation’s beauty and so forth or anywhere in between. That’s our slice of the multiverse. But with all these timelines to choose from, all these movie scripts that we get to choose from depend on what we want to learn and what we want to experience. Does that fit your thoughts on this?
What you want to do should be the thing that you’re here to learn and find within yourself.
Yeah, in many ways, I believe that we are dimensionally limited avatars of a higher self. Why is dimensionally limited? Well, because it would be no fun to play in a game that we intend to learn from through experiential learning if everything that was already written was already known.
Or, to put it another way, it’s no fun watching a movie if you’ve read the Wikipedia page beforehand.
Exactly. That becomes a core aspect of it to make sure that it still retains its mystery. We think of history as his story, and now people say, “Oh, it should be her story,” and all that. But how about my story? It is a mystery. My story is the story that I’ve already written in my higher self capacity, but I left it to mystery, to my dimensionally limited avatar.
I would never create a game where, from the very beginning, I had omnipresence and omnipotence. There’s no fun with that. What I would do instead is create a game where I’d have to have the dimensionally imminent avatar, through a series of tests and challenges, learn itself and find its reason for being within—The Hero’s Journey. I watched the movie Braveheart last night.
Every hero’s journey starts with the same kind of archetypal experiences. In the movie Braveheart, William Wallace lost his father when he was probably 10 years old. Then his father, while he’s lying dead on the table, William has a dream later on that night that his father wakes up, and he turns his head to him and says, “Your heart is free now. Have the courage to follow it.” That’s such a powerful thing because that’s exactly what the hero’s journey story is all about.
It’s about learning how to overcome what everybody else tells you should be. What you want to do should be the thing that you’re here to learn and find within yourself, the great mystery within, to then realize it. That becomes the alchemy that changes the entire world around you.
Speaking of alchemy, The Alchemist is also following that same hero’s journey. Follow your own personal legend like the shepherd did, and you, too, can reach your treasure. Which, incidentally, I had recently learned is based on a true story of Isaac of Krakow from hundreds of years ago, having a repeating dream where the treasure is buried underneath the Charles Bridge in Prague.
He goes there, trying to evade the guards, but this one guard catches him, and he’s like, “What are you doing here?” Isaac says the truth, “I keep having this dream, and there’s treasure buried here.” He’s like, “Get out of here. That’s crazy.” “I keep having a dream that some Polish guy in Krakow has a buried treasure under his stove in his house.” Of course, Isaac knew that that was why he was at the bridge, to get that piece of knowledge. He went back home, dug under his stove, and sure enough, there was a bunch of treasure there. To this day, there’s still a synagogue in his honor that he paid for because of all his wealth. Pretty cool.
Wow. It’s interesting that we all are in this game and don’t even realize it. Each game is entirely unique. Each person is going through their own unique story and game. How do you separate between NPCs, as you put it, and everybody else? Who are the people that are not NPCs? Where’s the limit of that? In other words, in the movie The Matrix, what’s the limit on the number of smiths that could be? All of it’s rendered.
Personally, I don’t believe in limits. I think it’s a limitless game we’re playing. But our beliefs actually create constraints. If we believe that there can only be a certain number of regular souls and a certain number of NPCs, then we create that reality. When you get down to the base level of reality, I think everything is consciousness. There’s nothing that’s not consciousness. The tree out the window has a soul. It’s conscious, and you can have a conversation with it.
If you have psychic abilities, that’s real. Or you could believe that it’s just a chunk of wood and there to make tables and chairs. That’s your reality, then. You will never have communication with that tree because of your belief system. It’s just we create what we want and are here to learn, and we get a new level of the game.
It’s interesting that we all are in this game and don’t even realize it. Each person is going through their own unique story and game.
But there are clear demarcations in the game. One aspect I always think of is also an oft-quoted line by Alan Watts where he says, “Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun.” I find that a very powerful statement because I feel that once we leave here, we die. There’s no such thing as death. But we went to another place, and I think the first thing we wanted to do was to come back. I want to do that again. So real.
Think about how many infinite lifetimes experiences you could have with different backdrops. You could use the zodiac as the backdrop setting for not only the cycles within the year but also the larger cycles of 24,000 years, just like we learn about in The Holy Science by Giri Yukteswar. To me, all of this is pointing to a universe and a creator that wants to learn itself.
Well, wants to experience itself through our eyes.
We are literally the universe perceiving itself through our eyes. That’s beautiful when you think about it. Everybody has a purpose. Everyone has a note to play in this one universal song in the one verse. To me, that’s what makes life incredibly profound and special. Then you can start turning, making lead into gold. To me, that’s a metaphor. Turning lead into gold is realizing that your experience of duality, your challenges, you face all of your sufferings, and experience is actually the prima materia of the alchemical process of soul evolution that becomes golden.
We tend to think of the square root of 2 or the number 2 as the basis and foundation of duality. I look at math and try to apply meaning to mathematics because math without meaning is just information. But math with meaning becomes divine communication. If it has the ability to move and shift our expectations, it becomes truly divine. Because our expectations define the reality around us. The level of our belief system is going to impact whether or not we can move a mountain. In this context, it starts to make the Bible stories and the New Testament stories of miracles not sound so ridiculous.
Like in Isaiah 6 verse 8, Isaiah is having an astral projection experience. He’s going to interrupt a board meeting between God and the archangels, getting their assignments from God for different miracles. Isaiah interrupts, saying, “Here I am, please send me. I want to do this, too.”
Absolutely. This is exactly the point. If we think about the number two as being the foundational aspect of duality, and this is what we ascribe suffering to, separation, difficulty, and all of that, what would be the infinite form of the number two? Well, the infinite form or the essence of the number 2 should be the number that could create the number 2 just by in and of itself. The only number that could do that would be the square root of two.
Inside that is the infinite aspect of two-ness. But then, when we think about the trinity, we think about divinity. If we take the square root of three, does that then imply the essence of divinity? The essence of duality plus the essence of divinity equals approximately π 1.4142, which is the square root of 2 + 1.73205, which is the square root of 3; the essence of divinity and the essence of duality adds together to 3.146.
You can now imagine a circle with a diameter of 1. Its circumference is the summation of root 2 and root 3. Then I had to ask, “Okay, and root two kinds of looks like the symbol for Saturn, which is also the symbol for lead,” because lead is associated with Saturn. Then I wanted to know what percentage or how many degrees of that circle circumference would be ascribable to the root two components. Guess what it comes out to? 161.816 degrees. It’s the five-palindrome golden ratio. [1:61]8-161 over 1.618 equals 0.618. The palindrome 0.618 becomes the back half of that number, 161.816 degrees. It’s literally perfect.
You would love to study Gematria.
Man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun. – Alan Watts
Oh, absolutely. I study Gematria in every language.
That’s awesome. In Hebrew, echad is one. As part of the Sh’ma Yisrael, the prayer of God is one. Echad in Gematria, you’ve got one, seven, and four. One is for the oneness, seven is the seven levels of heaven, and four is for the four corners of the earth. Everything is all one. Even the secret of oneness is hidden inside the number of the name or the oneness of God.
There are just so many of these. The name Ruth is 660 in Gematria. She has this beautiful story of how she went to Israel and followed the ways of Judaism and the 660. I forget exactly how this works, but her number plus the seven Noahide laws she was already bound by equals all of the mitzvot or the commandments a Jew must follow. There are so many of these examples. Like, I just learned that last week. I’m a little rusty at explaining it, but this idea of secrets is hidden in the numbers associated with letters in the Bible.
That’s because we’re thinking that numbers are separate from letters, but they’re not. If you actually go back in history, the Greeks didn’t use the Arabic numeral system. They used their letters. The alphabet was just 1, 2. It’s like Aleph Bet Gimel. That’s basically Aleph’s bet, which is actually a reference to the bull’s house. That’s the name of the Great Pyramid. It’s actually a reference to Osiris, the house of the apis bull. You’ve got the Aleph bet, which is actually a great pyramid reference.
Then, Gimel is just a camel. We could go through the whole thing, which becomes 1, 2, 3. The way that we’ve evolved in our counting, and you might think, and erroneously so that humanity created numbers. We didn’t create numbers. Numbers are part of the universe. Maybe the form of it, the geometry, you know, the fact that a rose takes the shape of a pentagon, the fact that the Fibonacci ratio is built into every tree and every plant, on the number of branches that go up a tree and where those spacings are, or the Feigenbaum constant determining all population growth.
If we start looking at this, we realize that from the very beginning, every word has some numerical meaning. We just didn’t realize it. That’s true with Hebrew, that’s true with Greek, it’s true with Phoenician, it’s true with every language. Imagine looking at letters differently and realizing, “Oh, they’re numbers. It’s all like a binary code.” Ultimately, it’s a different form of hexadecimal math. When I look at this issue of lead turning to gold, literally the square root of two, our association with lead and difficulty and suffering and challenge and all those things without the context of divinity is just suffering. Just like math without meaning is just learning information, math with meaning becomes divine communication.
That’s exactly what suffering can become. Suffering in this context, when we put it in the context of the square root of three, brings us full circle. That full circle gives us meaning to why we have to experience suffering. It even turns suffering into our greatest soul evolution. It turns it from lead, the square root of 2, into literally 161.816, the double Phi palindrome mirror relationship, which is actually golden. We turn lead into gold.
God is in everything. It’s not just in the light aspects of the universe. It’s in the dark aspects, too.
It’s not metaphorical, it’s reality. This means that in everything we experience that is negative, we should look at it differently and start to accept it and say, “Why am I going to resist this?” It will only persist and say, “Why did I choose this?” Instead of asking the question, “Why did this happen to me?” Asking the question why something happened to you is the most disempowering thing you can do.
Asking why you chose this is putting on the hat of the realization of your own omnipresence and omnipotence, which is that you or an active participant in this learning game of the one perceiving itself through our eyes, and you are that one as well. God is in everything. It’s not just in the light aspects of the universe. It’s in the dark aspects, too, for one cannot exist without the other. The absence of light is what we call darkness, but actually, darkness is not the absence of light.
Darkness is the absorbed condition of light’s reflection. Light has a reflection spectral analysis and an absorption spectral analysis, and both are necessary to have any reflection and absorption.
I really want to thank you for taking the time with me and allowing me to be on your podcast. If anyone wants to find out more about my work, you can find me on robertedwardgrant.com or at @robertedwardgrant on Instagram.
Perfect. Also, if they want to sign up for the beta list for ORION Messenger.
Yes, orionmessenger.io.
Well, thank you, Robert. This was fabulous, and you’re a real light in the world. Thank you for all that you do. Also, thank you, listener, for being a light in the world, too. Listen to this podcast, take the stuff you learn, put it out in the world, and make it a better place. We’ll catch you in the next episode. I’m your host, Stephan Spencer, signing off.
