Achieve Lasting Change with Deanne Adamson

In this Episode

• [02:20]Stephan welcomes Deanne Adamson and asks her about her origin story.
• [12:15]Deanne shares her most profound experience integrating changes mentally, physically, and spiritually.
• [16:16]Stephan and Deanne discuss hearing God’s voice.
• [21:06]Deanne talks about the spiritual practices they teach in her company, Being True To You.
• [28:13]Deanne discusses her experience with Bufo and its transformative potential.
• [34:49]Deanne reveals the initial step in the detoxification and reconnection process.
• [44:05]Stephan wants to know Deanne’s take on kratom as a potential aid in addiction recovery.
• [48:09]Deanne tackles the significance of “set and setting” in transformational journeys.
• [50:05]Deanne discusses transcranial magnetic stimulation as a potential treatment and its impact on individuals.

Jump to Links and Resources

Deanne, it’s so great to have you on the show.

Thank you so much. It’s so great to be here. It’s such a pleasure. We’ve been planning this for a few months, so thanks for reaching out to me. I am just excited to be here and share a little about what we do.

I would love to hear, first of all, your origin story of how you got into this particular space. Did you have a dark night of the soul that you had to kind of climb out of a big, dark hole, or did you have somebody, a loved one, that was in addiction recovery or some sort of traumatic situation? How did you get into this space?

People always want to know that. I’m Deanne Adamson. I started a company called Being True To You 14 years ago. In 2010, I made a huge decision to leave mental health counseling. I was a clinical counselor, and I felt unfulfilled in that role because I really wanted to help people with their human experience, and I really wanted to make an impact. I sort of found that I was just diagnosing people so that they could get medicated, and that was really what people wanted. It was a hard time in my life after spending all that time to become a counselor and then just kind of questioning the model. And I was working in a severely mentally ill clinic.

I was working with a population that was really struggling, and the prognosis was a little bit lower. And maybe that was supposed to happen because I was supposed to start a coaching business. I ended up starting a company called Being True To You. It is a transformational coaching business. It was before it was so trendy, I think, and it was before I really understood how challenging business was. I’m not sure that I would have done it in that understanding.

I started Being True To You to work with teens. Initially, I wanted to help youth wake up faster and find their passion and purpose in life. I feel like once you become an adult, you’re so busy and inundated with stuff. And I look back to those younger years when you had so much time to do anything. You think, “Gosh, I wish I would have spent that time learning languages or educating myself in various ways or traveling,” or there are so many things I could have done other than prioritizing popularity and partying.

So that was my initial desire. And then I realized teens aren’t ready to work on themselves. And so that didn’t really take off as I expected. I got invited to Mexico to check out ibogaine treatments. That felt really out of left field for me. Ibogaine is an entheogen or psychedelic medicine that people use to detox from opiates or heroin.

I thought, “Okay, I’ll go down and check it out.” I went down, and I visited the clinic, and there was a bunch of American and Canadian clients going down there to undergo a very arduous journey and experience to detox themselves from drug addiction and also have a psycho-spiritual experience. That’s really where Being True To You took off.

I started providing aftercare for clinics like this, and then eventually preparation and integration services for these alternative wellness centers, addiction treatment centers and sober living, and then different psychedelic therapy centers. Now, we work with a lot of ketamine centers. The inspiration has evolved from the beginning, but it starts from a troubled teenage life of just being really lost in this world, and my value system is very upside down. By the time I sort of figured it all out later in my twenties, I thought, “Gosh, I really missed 15 years of my life.” But for 15 years, I also studied.

It was also an important part of my human experience. I then also worked in healthcare. I had a parent who worked in healthcare, and I always wanted to bring heart, soul, and hospitality back into healthcare. I felt that it became very dry. I felt that professionals initially joined these careers because they wanted to help. They want to serve people. But then, eventually, there are just so many people coming through the doors in such bad shape. I think that professionals kind of get burnt out and don’t have that heart connection with the patients anymore. 

Falun Dafa is based on truthfulness, compassion, and forbearance.

I want to bring heart and soul and hospitality into the healthcare arena or the human service arena, but I also want to bring personal empowerment and personal integration and really teach people how to show up for themselves because there are a lot of good treatments and technologies and medicines or psychedelics therapies for some people. We’re not an advocate for it, but we certainly help people through these experiences.

There are so many good things on the market available, but when people just show up and say, “Okay, I’m here, fix me, get rid of my symptoms,” and go home and just wait to see if something happened. They’re not integrating the results and not really getting lasting results. And so I realized we have to show up and work in partnership with these different therapies and treatments. We’re spending so much money and time on it, but we have to do the work mentally, physically and spiritually.

That was a lot of my inspiration to provide an integration coaching platform that could parallel healthcare in all personal development, veteran affairs, addiction treatments, peak performance, and the whole holistic wellness movement. I wanted to partner that with integration coaching as a message to everyone and as a service that we can get results as humans than we think we can if we participate in that process. If we can look within, we can figure out where our power is and integrate changes incrementally, day in and day out, but not by ourselves. We could have a coach, an accountability partner, a trusted confidant, someone there to actually help us.

Do you have spiritual experiences doing these different things, like ibogaine or ketamine or anything like that? Or is this more from just an addiction recovery standpoint that you’ve had this experience?

It’s a good question. I’m in my forties now, so there are many different transformational tools I’ve used over the years. I would say in my twenties, it was really unconscious. We were just exploring, not really knowing what we were doing. And then, once I got into this work, I realized I was going to have to try some psychedelic therapies. I had done some as a kid, like as a teenager, but for recreational purposes. I was quite surprised, as I think a lot of people are, that these are being used for therapeutic purposes. After I started the company, I underwent pretty much all the major psychedelic experiences so that I could see what it is like from a client experience to go through these journeys and realize that it’s not fun.

You’re not getting high. You have to do the work. You’re basically sitting naked with yourself and looking in the mirror and having to have a very honest conversation about how you’re showing up to your own human experience and how you’re showing up to others. I saw the challenging experiences that await a person, and I also saw the opportunities to really engage in the work. And then it was almost like a magnifying glass that was exaggerating all of the shortcomings that we have, all the little lies and self-deception, all the attachments, all the unfinished business, the things that we’ve left behind or all the traumatic marks that have been left on us that really helped to develop the program. 

I’ve had those experiences. Ultimately, I do not use psychedelic therapy to this day. I found a meditation practice called Falun Dafa, which I have practiced for a decade now, that is actually persecuted in China. But it’s just based on three: truthfulness, compassion, and forbearance. These three principles are how I live my life and underlie how we do our work here at Being True To You as well. We have more principles and core values of Being True To You. So, to me, it’s a meditation practice, a spiritual practice that has really taken me to the next level.

But I see the value in these transformational tools and these transformational medicines to help people to engage the work with stuff in the psyche, in the subtle body that’s become so dormant and it’s just become so lost within a person that they almost don’t know where the symptoms are even coming from any more or where the problems are coming from. And so any kind of transformational tools, whether it’s TMS technologies or whether it’s like breath work or yoga therapy, hot and cold plunges, going out on nature hikes, there’s a lot of different things or psychedelic therapies. 

Ketamine treatment is becoming really common here in the United States. There are lots of ways to do the work and to engage in the work. What has been challenging, naming my company as Being True To You, is that I have had to go on that journey as well. And that’s the same with all the coaches on our team. We’ve trained 1500 coaches now, mostly all professionals coming to us from different industries who want to get into this work and learn how to better support people. 

Through that process, we realize we have to do the work as well. We also have to look at ourselves. We also have to find these areas of challenge and difficulty, attachments, addictions, and areas that are blocking us from being the best version of ourselves if we want to help our clients do it. So, yes, Stephan, absolutely. I’ve had to go through a number of challenging and eye-opening experiences to do the work that we’re doing today.

What was the most profound experience that you had? Maybe you could describe it for us. What was the substance you used, if any? And what was the takeaway for you?

I quit drinking 14 years ago after feeling sad about not being able to help people stop drinking, which led to a realization about tuning into my true voice and letting go of the ego.

There’s just been so many lessons and insights. Over the last decade, some of them truly difficult and some of them just awe and inspiring. To start with, it is a psychedelic experience because I think people get really interested in that. You could take the ibogaine experience. This is an experience that not many people get to do because it’s expensive. It’s a medical treatment that you have to have medical supervision for. It’s not something you could just do in your backyard. 

It’s very long. It’s about 36 hours before you really come out of it. You’re just down in a toxic place, and you’re forced to close your eyes and just be in it for 12 hours. And so this was a life-changing experience for me because what I was able to see under that medicine was all the fragmented parts of myself. It started with all the different voices talking. I don’t hear that in my everyday life. My inner narrative was going, but I didn’t realize there were a bunch of different voices. 

When I was under my eye, I remember almost feeling like I was being yelled at. There was just the voice of the parent, the voice of the coach when you’re younger, the voice of your enemies, the voice of your competitors, the voice of your true self, and the voice of yourself—the insecure self, the anxious self, the fearful self. I just thought, “How do we live our everyday lives honestly with all this interference in our brains?” It was quite eye-opening for me to realize that I’m pulled in a lot of different directions. I think we say that out loud. 

One part of me wanted to do this, and another part of me wanted to do that. We start to realize that we have all these different parts and personalities, and there are a lot of metaphors that people use to talk about, like the counsel inside of the brain. By the end of the 12 hours, there was only one voice left, and that was my true voice. And it really helped me to connect with that voice and that voice of God as well, that higher self, that soul—however you want to think about it—and differentiate that from all of the other voices. And I came out of that experience feeling clear and clean, and I remember just feeling so confident and having no fear.

Once you hear your true voice and understand what that feels and sounds like, it changes you for a lifetime.

When I was actually able to just take all of that and set that aside, I was actually able to find myself. Then, in your everyday life, when that other voice comes up, that’s like, “Hey, let’s have another cupcake,” or, “Hey, let’s watch another TV show.” You realize that’s not my true self talking. That’s my comfort. That’s the part of me that maybe is in pain, that’s bored, that’s anxious, that’s looking for some kind of relief. That’s not my true voice. And so that was a really big moment for me because you read about these things and you heard it. Motivational speakers talk about these things, but until I actually experienced it for myself and saw all the different parts of me that are working against me, I realized how hard it is to create change and why we are so stuck as a society in our bad habits and our patterns, routines, and even debilitating addictions, depressions, insomnia, and anxiety, and just like all the different things that hold us back, it’s because we’re working against ourselves. 

It’s actually our self doing the bad things and ourselves wanting to do the good things. I realized why things like coaching and accountability, support groups, community, and coming together and events are so important because we can’t do it on our own. We actually need the strength of other people and our connection to our creator, God, and our higher self. Again, however, people think of that. That’s one of many experiences I can share that might be helpful to listeners.

One thing I’m curious to hear about is when you said that you heard the voice of God among all these other voices. Would you say that opened a doorway or a portal for you to receive that voice of God on multiple occasions, not just in that one experience, but just through everyday life?

I’ve had other experiences like that, too. In fact, the day that I quit drinking was 14 years ago, and that was more when I woke up and felt very sad that I couldn’t help people stop drinking alcohol. And I had people in my life who were really suffering and clients.

There was a voice that came into my head that night that said, “Why don’t you quit drinking yourself?” I thought, “No, don’t say that.” And so I ended up quitting. And, yes, that opens up an awareness that there is something inside of us that we can communicate with if we’re open to it. That also really helped me understand what people mean by letting go of the ego because I was always like, “What do you mean by that? We are our ego.” 

Then you start to realize, like, “Oh, I’m fighting against the higher voice.” I have a true voice that has my best interest in mind, and then I have the other parts of me that get wrapped up in the allure of the material world. Those voices compete with each other. Once you hear your true voice come through, the part of you that is eternal, the part of you that goes beyond the current moment, and you understand what that feels like and what that sounds like. Yes, it changes you for a lifetime because now you know to tune into that, and then you also know to recognize when something is not in your best interest. It’s actually just a desire. It’s a delusion. It’s an attachment.

A delusion or illusion. So much in this material world is an illusion. It looks real, but it’s not. You know, the only real thing is love and God, and everything else is just part of the video game.

I think that’s a lot of the work in transformation as well, and it is to try to differentiate what is true for me, what is real, what is most important, and what isn’t. I think that’s where we live our best life, and it is really when we can differentiate that.

Each person has their own journey and belief system, so we recommend a spiritual practice that is just consistent.

Because, like, in my younger years, my value system was literally sitting on the beach drinking a corona. Like, you see those billboards and those commercials, and I was like, “This is life. I’m living my best life.” At the time, I was happy, and I thought that I was. Eventually, you start to realize, “That is what I want my life to amount to.” You start to look at these value systems, what’s most important, and what’s your purpose in life? What’s your higher calling? That’s really where we live our best life. I feel like when we’re not aligned with that, a lot of symptoms start to emerge.

After doing so many intakes of hundreds and thousands of people at this point, and we hear about the symptoms, instead of looking at it from a medical perspective, in a diagnostic perspective, I just kind of look at it from a human experience perspective. And there’s a clear association between these symptoms and being lost in life and being disconnected from what’s most important. Sometimes, it’s a personal thing because sometimes people have their husband and wife, their kids, their church, and their day job. But sometimes, it’s a higher calling, and that gets us out of the monotony of life. 

It’s something that lights a fire inside of us. When we connect with that, it is often the thing that is required to start working through all of the other anxieties. A lot of times, the anxieties, the depression, all the mental health issues that we’re seeing in the country are a culmination of a lot of other things. And so if we can start to address all those other things that are keeping us from the path of our true self, we start to rise to a higher place, a higher vantage point, and then we have that clarity to embark upon a journey that is true for us. We’re not sitting in the lower vibration of our life, stuck in these cycles of suffering that are often self-perpetuated.

I’m curious if you’ve done Bufo. I’ve heard amazing things about Bufo. I’ve never done any of the psychedelics, any drug whatsoever. I’ve had experiences of the divine. I’ve had psychedelic-type experiences, and that was just through breathwork or just through prayer or through getting touched on the head by a monk.

After you pass through an ego death and let go of that aspect of yourself, you open up into a state of consciousness beyond self-awareness, and that experience feels like being reborn.

I’ll first say that I don’t think that to ascend and awaken, we have to be doing psychedelic therapies in that industry. That’s the belief. Does everyone need psychedelics? Everyone has to do them to awaken, and everyone has to do it to find your heart and be true to you. We don’t teach people that. We teach people to each their own; each person has their own journey, and each person has their own belief system and uses different tools. Ultimately, what we recommend is a spiritual practice that is consistent. I just want to start that question with that. If you’re doing breathwork, do it every morning.

If you’re doing yoga or meditation, do it every morning. Because sometimes people say, “I’ve tried everything. Nothing works.” And it’s like you start asking them, “How many times did you try it?” And it’s like, “Well, I did it once, and I went to one class.” I went in order to actually have change. You want a spiritual practice that is true for you and that you do every single day. And one practice, you’re not mixing all these different practices together. You find something that is truly wholesome, and that can take you to a higher place.

With Bufo, that’s really interesting. I don’t know if your listeners know about it. So there is a toad called Bufo Alvareus, and this is a toad that kind of runs in the land that I’m in down in the four corners and down into Mexico. It’s like those traditional toads, you see. Well, when you take out the venom, it doesn’t kill the toads. If you take out the venom and you inhale it, you smoke it. Essentially, after it’s dried, it gives you an experience of a lifetime for which there are no words. It’s about a ten-minute experience. People refer to it as the God molecule because it is commonly experienced inside of that, that one would feel one with their creator, and one would have almost this deja vu feeling of remembering this eternal essence, this eternal origin beyond the human experience.

It has a huge impact on people. I have had the experience. I’ve done it a few times. I don’t usually tell people too much about it because, you know, if someone wants to do it, I want them to have their own experience. However, it was initially the most terrifying thing I’ve ever done. I’m really surprised that I tried it again because you basically experience yourself dying. You experience an ego death, as they call it. But after you pass through and you let go of that aspect of yourself, then you open up into a state of consciousness beyond self-awareness, and that experience feels like being reborn.

It is the hardest and the greatest experience of a person’s life. And I think most people who have done it will attest to that, that it was the hardest and the greatest. I remember taking some Navy SEALs through it, and I said, “You know, it’s just like jumping out of an airplane the first time. You’re really nervous, and then you get to the top, and you jump, and it’s really scary at first, but then you love it afterward.” I loved my analogy, and they came to me afterward and said, “It is nothing like jumping out of an airplane.” They said, “That is much, much more terrifying.” I was like, “Well, for me, it would make sense because I would be terrified.” And so I was like, “Okay, got to use the right metaphors.”

But the experience is interesting because it comes from an organic substance. I have no idea how people discovered that. But I would say that is a useful therapeutic experience for somebody who’s very stuck or in a bad way. Like, if somebody was kind of in a life-threatening situation, such as their body’s healthy, but they’re feeling suicidal, they’re just not connecting with this life anymore. They don’t understand their place in the world. That’ll do the trick for sure for anybody. I’ve never seen it not work. Somebody who’s a drug user and is always on substances might be harder to break through if they’re always doing stuff like this.

But I would say maybe it’s around at a time like this when we do have so much suicide going on and so many people that are not feeling connected to this life anymore. Just look at teens alone. The second leading cause of death for people 10 to 14 years old is suicide. And I was just like, “Kids, it’s the second leading cause of death.” And so obviously, you can’t give kids that medicine, but it’s like you just start to think about what will crack open the human spirit, what will really get to the heart and help us understand our place here in this world.

So, I do think that that’s a very sacred experience that should be held in great reverence for people. And you really have to do your due diligence if someone is going to do that experience because even though it’s ten minutes, it’s life-changing. It’s very big.

You need the right person to take you through it, too.

You do. We do not do those experiences for you, but we’ll coach you. If you find the right facilitator, have done your due diligence and research, and are interested in something like this, you can call us. We will get you with a coach, and we can help you prepare for it. We can help you prepare for an experience like this, and then we can help you integrate it afterward. And it’s not something you just want to do spontaneously because it’s so powerful. Do you want to prep for it, or do you want to figure out what changes I want to make? What do I need to do to get to where I want to be and put all of that into motion first? 

That way, when you come out, you’re ready to go to hit the ground running, so to speak, whether it’s with your exercise routine, your meditations, improving your relationships or doing better at work, whatever it is. So I think about these experiences a lot, Stephan and a lot of people do. Like, “Why are they here? Why do we have these opportunities to do this?” And then you look at the mental health epidemics, the addiction epidemics, the suicide epidemics, and you see tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people dying young or just dying in their heart, even if they’re still walking around, it’s like they’re not really living.

In this busy world where everybody is overwhelmed and oversensitized, it feels so good to actually just be like an empty vessel.

Then you have these substances that are bringing people back online. That’s why we continue to integrate them; we are proponents of traditional spiritual practice. However, we see that the world is really struggling and hurting. If you can have these mystical and divine experiences that can reconnect you with your value system, and you need that, go for it because they do. I can attest, after helping people through thousands of journeys at this point, and I’m talking about my whole team, that it does bring people back to their heart, to what’s most important in their life, to their value system, to their family, and it makes them want to be a better person. It makes them want to improve themselves and clean up the messes that they’ve left behind. But there are ways to abuse it, too. You gotta really do your due diligence and know what you’re getting into.

Thank you for sharing. I’m curious to hear if you have had follow-up experiences. I guess that with, you’re gonna have experiences for multiple weeks after the initial one, just like, would you, middle of the night, go on a trip or something?

That can happen once you enter that space, especially in the immediate days. For instance, if you take Bufo in the first week, If you were to go sit in meditation or even when you go to bed, and you close your eyes, you’re just going to feel like you’re falling into, like, deep space. Some people like that, and they’ll try to stay in that space actively. In the first week, they’ll be doing breathwork, meditation, journaling, nature, and just sitting with themselves because they can fall back into that state of sheer relief and peace and joy and stillness.

In this busy world where everybody is overwhelmed and oversensitized, it feels so good to actually just be clean and empty, like an empty vessel. After the experience, people like to sit in it. For other people, it’s so unfamiliar. It feels scary because they’re used to the drama and the noise. To be in that space feels like there’s something wrong. That’s why it’s good to have an integration coach: because that new space that’s created has a lot of opportunities to do the inner work and let go of the chains that bind us. But it can also be frightening because to be alone with your thoughts is scary for a lot of people. I know people who never turn the TV off or the radio off.

It’s like, they’re like, “Oh, I have to have noise in the background because we always are playing something.” And so all of a sudden, when we’re just as still as, like, a pond in the morning, and there’s no ripple anywhere, it’s like, “Okay, what’s happening? There’s something wrong.” And so, yeah, those experiences will kind of give that, and then when you’re in there, that’s when the work will surface—the fear, desire, or something good, like a calling, like something pinging you. You need to pay attention to it; it is something important. That’s when you lean into it, you get your journey, write it down, track it, or just mentally welcome it into your field. 

Because I think, too, we’re really resistant in our modern world. When the stuff comes, we just want to block it out. Block it out. There are two ways to see that. There’s a way that this is a negative thing. Something’s happening or not happening, or there’s the positive of like, okay, I’m actually doing this. I’m leaning into the spot. Learning to meditate and be still is a great time after these experiences because it’s much easier. That’s why they call them addiction interrupters, habit interrupters, or pattern interrupters.

You were talking about how that noise in the background keeps people, I don’t know, placated or numb to what’s happening inside with their own voices. Because there are those multiple voices, not just the one inner voice, one of them, I’d say, is the most important voice, which is that voice of God, that still small voice. And you’re not going to hear it if you’re drowning it out with music, TV, and just background noise. Not too long ago, I interviewed Echo Bodine. 

She’s the author of A Still, Small Voice: A Psychic’s Guide to Awakening Intuition. That book has been really helpful to me because I really want to nurture that relationship, that connection, that communication I have with God and my unseen support team. I listen to music all the time. I used to listen to podcasts all the time. I don’t have time for that. I need to have a lot of time just with the stillness to hear God.

If you look at the opposite of mental illness and addictions, we’re looking for homeostasis; we’re looking for tranquility.

If we think about the point of life, it is to let go of all of it. We spend the first decades of our lives adding on these attachments and all of these hopes and dreams that become pursuits and desires. And it can lead to indulgence, an overactive mind, and a very busy life, which I can attest to. Then, we wake up and understand the spiritual pathway. And then we start to realize, like, “Oh, now I have to let it all go.” And so that really is the process, I think, of finding tranquility. If you look at the opposite of mental illness and addictions, all the suffering people are going through, we’re looking for homeostasis. We’re looking for tranquility.

That’s the place that we’re leaning into. But it’s scary because as we go into that space, we start to look at our comforts and all the things that we love and want and hold so tightly to. And it’s scary to let them go. Also, it can be challenging to see that we might be off course in life. Think about listening to God. How hard is that? It’s not easy. You think, “Oh, I’ll just listen to God.” But when you actually do that, listen to that true voice, and listen to what God’s saying, you have to take action. You have to take responsibility, and you have to do something.

A lot of what we’re doing in our coaching program with our clients is that it’s not just about how to reach goals. It’s how I align myself, react, calibrate myself, and have the courage to face where I might be off track and where I might need to change. Because I’m telling you, people come into our company all the time and say, “Here’s my money. I want to change. I’m ready to do anything.” But then, when it comes down to it, the work, that’s when they start to become resistant. I kind of feel like people say, “Okay, I’m going to give you my money to help me,” but then I’m going to run and hide, and I’m not going to actually do anything. You got to come catch me and convince me. 

I feel like that’s a lot of what we have to do with each other. We have that opening of, “Okay, I’m ready. I think I’m ready.” But then, once we get closer, we get that resistance and that fear, and we cling to our attachments again. We’re like, no, no, I’m not ready.

It’s both challenging and not challenging when it comes to the phenomenon of addiction. I think the first step in understanding what to do is to acknowledge the phenomenon of addiction that’s over all of humanity.

So it’s been very interesting running a coaching company to really observe human behavior. And the more that we just understand it, the more self-awareness that we have, the less scary it is really to listen to that voice.

One of the ways to numb out from the voice and the accountability of hearing that voice and thus needing to take the actions that are the high road. This is how a lot of folks end up in addictions. If someone listening is addicted to drugs or alcohol, what would be the best process or a starting point and next step for them in that detoxification and reconnection process?

It’s both challenging and not challenging when it comes to the phenomenon of addiction. I mean, I think the first step in understanding what to do is to acknowledge that phenomenon of addiction that’s over all of humanity. I think it’s a very shameful experience for people to feel like, how did I let this happen to me? I’m such a strong person. I’m such a strong being. Like, how did I lose control? Then, we start to look at this phenomenon of addiction throughout humanity. Simply put, this phenomenon says that our problems and solutions are in the external world. We turn them over. We outsource our solution to something.

We find something that works. And it helps us feel better. It helps us normalize. It helps us function for a while. Then, eventually, the negative consequences start to set in. And then it becomes so progressive. And we become dependent on it. We can’t let go of it. I think the first thing to do is recognize that the phenomenon happens to everyone in one way or another. There are so many people completely allergic to this idea of addiction. And like, “No, no, no, this isn’t me.” Everybody’s dealing with it. Coffee screens, drama, negativity, complaining on some scale. We all have these attachments. 

They get rooted in us really deeply. Once we acknowledge that, we will start to see that this is an access point to the work. We don’t need to see addictions as a negative thing. We can actually see it as, “Okay. Initially, it was a solution to my problem, a solution to my pain.” Now, it’s going to become my access to transformational work. Because I am going to have to work on this. After we acknowledge the addiction phenomenon, Then we accept that it happened. And then we embrace the work that it’s going to take.

We don’t need to see addictions as a negative thing. We can actually see it as access to transformational work.

We embrace this recovery path that people talk about. When it comes to detoxification, it depends on what kind of condition a person is in. I would say you can start right now from home. Drinking water, exercising and getting good sleep. Paying attention to the food that you put in your body. Doing intermittent fasting or juice fasting. Starting to clean out the body is going to give you a lot of momentum.

To even find the right detox for you. Because you have to clear out that brain when it comes to detox, it depends on what a person’s going through. Suppose it’s like a serious drug addiction or alcohol addiction. Sometimes, you do need medical support. It can be difficult to do it at home. There are home detoxes, but you still have to have support. You have to have the right information, the right nutrition, and the right accountability.

Sometimes, the right supplementation is. People are certainly using microdosing, psychedelic microdosing, which helps a lot if you have someone to monitor these things with you. And if you have someone to guide you. And if you can figure out how to do it in a legal fashion. The detoxification process. I will just say it is a process. It’s not like a one-day thing. I noticed people put so much emphasis on the detox that they put no emphasis on the preparation and integration. 

That being the industry that we basically discovered and have pioneered, we see that the detox is like 5% of the journey. The rest of the journey is doing the work, making lifestyle changes, and putting the scaffolding or the support system around you that you need while you build up strong on the inside. I would say they don’t run toward detox immediately. Do the legwork first. Get as much in order as you can, even for someone addicted to heroin. I used to prep them even if I only had a week or two weeks before they would go off to treatment and help them get their ducks in a row.

Their mind is right, their goals are right, and their aftercare plan is right. When you show up to detox, you are ready, you have the courage, and you understand the ambivalence is going to happen, the resistance is going to come, and it’s okay. I expect that. And it helps people have the strength to work through this process. And then afterward, you have to have an integration plan in place, a recovery plan, whatever you call it, which would consist of personal support of some kind, someone to talk to, changing your lifestyle and physical activities. A home makeover is just so great. Anyone who hasn’t done a whole makeover, do it. Get rid of everything in your home that’s not serving you, and bring in everything that is.

Make it visible. If you want to do protein shakes in the morning, have your blender and your organic protein that you like sitting out. If you want to be working out, have your tennis shoes and your workout clothes visible to you so that it’s really easy to jump into this. They say that when it comes to relapsing, craving happens in seconds. So we have to be able to give the brain options and a way out quickly. So, yeah, it’s quite a process of personal acceptance and acknowledgment and preparation, setting the stage for something to change. I think about addiction all the time. Ultimately, I think I am ready to just fully give it up.

Until you have that conversion experience, I’m never going to touch this again, and it will keep haunting you. And so when people say like, “Well, I’m going to just try it, I’m going to see if it works,” it won’t work. It just won’t. You have to be like, I’m changing my life. I’m giving this up. I know it’s going to be hard, but this is the day that things are going to change in all of those little vultures, basically, metaphorically, that circumnavigate your mentality trying to get you to give in. They’re gone because it’s the thought that actually initiates the craving. 

Somehow, you have to trick yourself into or prepare yourself enough to have a conversion experience to be like, “I’m never going to do this again,” until you really get to that point. It’s hard if people just go into something saying, “I’ll see if this works. I’ll see if that works.” It won’t because you’re still entertaining the idea of that habit. So those cravings and that reality are still going to be present in your field.

You spoke about heroin a few minutes ago. I recently saw for the second time a movie called A Street Cat Named Bob. Have you seen that movie? It’s a beautiful movie that is very inspiring. It’s based on a true story—the story of James Bowen, who was homeless. He was addicted to heroin, living in the streets in the London area, and a street cat named Bob saved his life. It was divinely put there in his life. He became a very successful street performer. He was barely earning a living to pay for even some basic food before. But then the cat was in the act with him while he was playing the guitar, and he was able to make a lot more money.

Then he got a support system around him, and he got off the heroin, and he was on methadone to get off of the heroin. He was in a program, and then he missed some of his methadone treatments, and Washington was going to get thrown off the program. It’s quite an incredible story of struggle and finally overcoming. I recommend the movie. And there’s a book with the same title. It’s by James Bowen. He ends up getting a book deal. This homeless guy with an incredible story is on the brink of absolute oblivion, and then he makes it back into the world of living. It’s a really beautiful story.

When we asked our clients, “What helped you get sober?” They said, “They were coaches.” And we say, “Why?” And they say, “Because you believed in me when no one else did.” That was the number one feedback that we have gotten from clients. “What helped you the most in your recovery?” Of course, we’re asking clients who have coached with us in the long term. So they’re saying, “Well, working with my coach and that we believed in them when no one else did.” You think about this cat on the street. Look at animals. They’re just so loving.

They’re so compassionate. They love you. They believe in you. So you think about this cat named Bob, came up to him, saw him and thought, “I believe in you to take care of me.” Then, that became a purpose for him. So it’s really beautiful. It makes me think of the movie Cast Away and Wilson the Volleyball is like. You have to have one thing to connect with on a heart level and one thing that needs or believes in you. So that’s really special.

I think it speaks a lot about what is needed and also the research. When I look at it, I see a book by Anne Fletcher called Inside Rehab. She said in there that the thing that helps people in the end get sober is the one-on-one, trusted relationship that is long term and who says it has to be a human? I think people have connected very deeply with animals, so that’s very precious. And it shows the need for bonding, love and connection, and that needs to be seen and be needed to be a value to something very special.

I’m curious about your take on Kratom or Kratom as a way to get off of some very addicting substance. I guess there’s a lot less risk in taking Kratom than the stuff that somebody would typically be addicted to that they would need something like that to help wean them off. I’m just curious if you have any experience or wisdom to share about that particular substance.

I will first share that kratom is a cousin to opiates. It’s a natural plant substance, and you’ll get different answers from different people. And so I would say there’s a big divide on this topic. There are people who are for harm reduction and are absolutely behind kratom. It’s also legal, and that’s what’s really nice, too. If someone’s trying to get off legal substances that are full of contaminants, it’s going to be much safer to go to some kind of smoke shop or store and buy kratom. It’s kind of like a supplement, and you start taking it to alleviate a much riskier and dangerous drug. That makes sense.

I’ve also seen the other side of it. I’ve seen people get very addicted to kratom and not be able to stop as well. And I think that it’s one of those things, maybe like cannabis or tobacco sugar, where it’s easy to normalize. People stay on it for years, and then they get really hooked. So if you’re for harm reduction, and that’s the only option, to get someone off something that is more dangerous and that is illegal, that makes sense because right now, the issue with drug addiction is that the drugs are laced with fentanyl and other things like that that are very risky and dangerous. And so again, you go to the store, and you can buy something that you can see the ingredients of, and it’s going to be much more pure. That could be better. With the clients that I’ve worked with with severe opiate dependence, it’s hard for kratom to even touch that sort of craving.

It can just kind of make the body angry because it’s not what the body wants. So I have seen people just like, not like or benefit from it. I have also seen people benefit from it short term and actually use it as a transition drug. And I’ve seen people get very hooked and addicted to it. So, Being True To You, we don’t really teach harm reduction strategies, but we also don’t prevent them. So if somebody really needs that, that makes sense. The problem with it is we’re just going from one attachment to another, and we kind of can then have the same array of problems. If someone were to do that, I would say you want to set it up with accountability, a timeline, a regimen.

That way, it’s not just becoming another habit, something where it’s like, like, suboxone, suboxone works if you do it in less than 21 days. That’s me; I’m not saying that from a medical expert position. I’m saying that from observation of helping hundreds of people on Suboxone, it’s like if you’re on it over 21 days, the dependence kicks in, and you’re going to be in a worse situation than you were before. But if you use it in the short term, it could help somebody get out of an opiate addiction. But no one ever stops at 21 days because the doctors will keep giving it to you, and you’ll keep taking it, and then you’re dependent, and then good luck trying to get out of this box. 

When you show up to detox, you understand the ambivalence is going to happen, the resistance is going to come, and it’s okay.

A methadone addiction is harder than heroin to get out of those dependencies. I think with kratom, you can do it short term, but just understand it’s also addictive and it also can have similar problems, sometimes worse, because when something has less risk, and it’s more normalized, and you can function, you might end up being on it for a long time. As with anything, and that’s what psychedelic medicines too. It’s like there’s a dark and a light side to it, and it’s all about the set and setting around it and the intention, the accountability and the structure.

I’ve heard that term before: set and setting. I know Joe Polish talks about it. Where does that come from?

I’m not sure of the origins, but what it means is mindset and environmental setting. Anytime we’re setting up for some kind of transformational journey, you want to go in with the right mindset. That means I’m taking responsibility for myself. I’m acknowledging that I have areas that I would like to improve. I can look at myself, I can see my own shortcomings, I can observe my character, I can acknowledge my areas of weakness, and I can talk about that. When I enter the space, I trust the space, respect the people around there, and I’m ready to get uncomfortable. I understand that I’m going to step into discomfort. It’s not going to be easy, but I’m mentally ready, I’m feeling courageous, and I have intentions.

That’s all the mental stuff. If you don’t have that, we go in, our defenses are up, we’re ready to fight, we’re ready to run or escape. The work comes up, and we don’t want to feel discomfort, so we complain. And so the mindset on any kind of treatment journey, therapy is really the most important. Then, the setting part would be the environment, being safe, experiencing therapeutic support, and doing your due diligence on what you’re walking into because you might have the best mindset. But if you walk into a place that’s dangerous, careless, and unethical, then it’s not going to be a good environment. So, set and setting is just that term of getting in the right mindset and making sure you have the right setting for these kinds of experiences.

One last question. I know we’re out of time. You mentioned earlier in the conversation that TMS stands for transcranial magnetic stimulation. What’s your take on that? And can you just give a brief example of the impact that it can have on somebody?

Now that there’s we’re working with so many ketamine clinics, a lot of the ketamine clinics are also looking at different technologies as well. And so these kinds of technologies can serve to support old neurons. It breaks down and prunes away these neural connections that no longer serve us, and it stimulates new neural connections. So what it’s going to do is maybe give people a sense of peace and ease. Again, like we were talking about earlier, quiet the mind and create that space to do self-reflection and create an open window to create change. If you’re doing this, these kinds of experiences, you don’t want to just sit there and wait to see what happens. 

You want to work with it so that you have nutrition changes you’re making, like diet changes and exercise changes and improvements you’re making. Because anytime you’re going to use a technology or a tool or a technique, it’s just that it’s a tool to change your life. I don’t have as much personal experience working with clients with TMS, although I’ve known about it for a good decade. And the clinics that we’re working with say they’re getting great results for people who are depressive. And what they’re saying is that people are, yeah, like it’s cutting back these bad neural connections, and it’s rebuilding good neural connections. In that way, we have an opportunity to change our thinking and actions so that we can get different results.

Awesome. Well, this was fabulous. Thank you so much for sharing your experience and the great wisdom, insights and tools you’ve exposed us to during this episode. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on.

Thank you, listener. Thank you for being open-minded and being receptive to conversations such as this. Go out there and make it a great week. Reveal some light in the world, and we’ll catch you in the next episode. I’m your host, Stephan Spencer, signing off.

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